The past two years have been crazy. I got my life together, and I decided to jump down the rabbit hole just like everyone else on here, and now I’ve come out the other side as someone who has spent two years immersing themselves in what I originally called the world of pick up and what I’ve come to start referring to as charisma training.
In these two years I’ve gone through a lot, I did a 1000 approach challenge, a 30 day club challenge (multiple times), I took on students (one of which was autistic), I studied magic and just finished my first paying magic gig, I studied photography and started doing photo shoots with amateur models, I helped start and now run multiple meet up groups, I’ve sang on stage badly with bands and I’ve even done multiple dancing lessons. I even outsourced my online dating profiles for a while and had teams in India setup dates for me. After all this my life has stabilized a bit and I now have some clarity too look back on. This is what I wish I was told, outside of all the programs outside of all the books, and understood clearly before I started out.
Its all about adding value, abd being able to show value. Recognizing our own value, value in others, and being able to recognize what other people value. This one line sums up all of it, the psychology of it all is as simple as this line, but simple doesn’t mean easy. Every time you interact with a person your main concern should be, “how can I make this a lasting memory”. The routines, are all just ways to teach us how to show our own value. The approach is all just a dance to say hey I’m worth your time. Everything else I’m going to say comes from this main principal. So understand the Value stack, for more info on that listen to tony robbin’s stuff, or a lot of the old mystery method ideas, maybe even look into studying NLP.
Embrace failure, or learn to go insane. Seth Godin (google it, he’s a marketing genius) once stated “the way investors win is by having the most data points.” In order to have the most data points you have to learn how to play the game in a way that when you lose you can just step right back in the next round. The more you’re able to fail and be vulnerable the more chances for personal growth you’ll have. If you don’t learn to fail and brush yourself off you’ll never become objective. Our goal in this endeavor is to spot patterns that contribute to adding and displaying higher value. If your emotional its hard to objectively pick those out, or even to survive the tests necessary to learn those skills.
Outcome dependency is a trap, anything out of your control is truly out of your control. The original urge was to get X numbers or X F closes.. That was a stupid idea because it put my fate in the women I was approaching, not in myself. I can’t growth chart my progress based on chance. Once I took a step back and decided I am going to try to do X approaches, I am going to try to hug X girls, I am going to try to go to X events everything changed. Failure became in my hand and not in the whim of wither a girl was married or not, or just not in the mood. I could take pride in my accomplishments. One comment a famous pick up artist said that I used to text myself when I got depressed was, “Do you want the girl, or do you want the skill” Of course I want the skill, and I want the right girl.. I don’t care if these practice girls fail. I want to take the time to learn the skills before I worry about the results.
Stick to one program, Seriously.. you’ll paralysis yourself trying to focus on multiple things.
Towards the end of the second year I started studying magicians to understand the true best way to approach. The advice I got from the books I read was when learning card tricks, its better to sit down and master one trick then know 5 badly. The more you study the more you freak out, and every program always has the same message, go out and approach. I regret spreading myself thin, in the end I wish I only studied from the book “Models” . Everyone has there own style so I also recommend mystery method, Simple pickups paid services, or the rules of the game by neil strauss. Hell even Ross Jefferies will get you where you need to go if you just follow it. The best work out is the work out you do. Don’t over diversify until you’re an intermediate or your just engaging in intellectual masturbation.. in fact why are you reading this you should be out there practicing.
The people in your life are one of the strongest obstacles. Surround yourself only with people moving forward.
I got students because I found that having myself accountable to others who are also growing made me train harder, and approach more and even observe more. So many times the only thing that kept me going was them pushing me forward. Conversely whenever I doubted myself it was usually because of someone who was ashamed of the direction their life was going and started discouraging me it as if my success was an attack on their lack of happiness. You’re going to lose old friends, but you know what that is a good thing. I’ve honestly lost friends I’ve had for years many of them in the past 2 years and yet I find my life is running smoother now with less drama and now the friends I have are super value adders who encourage me to always grow.
I got a lot more of these gems, but I don’t want to ramble, tell me in the comments and with upvotes and downvotes if you think any of this is helpful, if any of this is wrong, or if any of this is just more intellectual masturbation. If I get good feedback I’ll keep going. Thank you all for your help and your support over the past few years.
Edit I am shocked by the number of questions I’ve gotten.. keep em coming.. and other experts and supportive community brothers and sisters feel free to expand upon, criticize and straight up answer some of these questions and comment on my post negatively too! I mean come on.. lets hear some dissenting opinions so I can refine my game. I am not selling anything nor pushing a specific agenda so i am open to all comments.
MattCuzns: Teams in India?
Perfectz : Yeah I hired a bunch of teams using elance.com to run my dating profiles… it was a really trippy experience. Found one who would work for $4 an hour in Spain who actually did the best job. I got the idea from a Tim Ferriss YouTube video. If you’re interested I can write an article on that or give you the details via PM.
SpaceTire: Thanks for this post man. This is inspirational. I bet you are a good coach.
I’m a 31/M who has finally gotten sick of his life & lack of goals being reached in the dating world. I’ve never approached a girl in the wild(day game) before and I am slowly building up Bravery. But I’m scared. That’s the only time a man can be brave. So Here I go to begin my journey. I got a few things going for me, I’m an average looking guy. Girls seem to like my okcupid profile. So I should have no excuses other than my lack of charisma training. Love that term.
Today was the first day I actively went out to try to approach a girl. I had a loosely assembled plan in my head, but was unable to find any approachable girls on my lunch break earlier. No big deal, but just going out with intent has lifted my spirits out of a several month slump.
The last couple days I have been watching youtube videos and really enjoy the work Tyler Durden has put out. Man, that guy is one sharp individual and I dig his philosophy. The simple pick up channel, although humorous, has given me inspiration to try and day game. They have proven to me, that its not really about what you say, but how you say it.
Do you think day game is harder or easier than night gaming in social environments like bars/clubs? I ask, because it seems like girls have their bitch shields up more actively at night where they have an abundance of male suitors. Where as during the day, I may be the only person to approach her and she would feel more flattered. just my observation. Where do you recommend a complete noob start his journey?
So thank you for writing this post.
Perfectz: First comment: Nice brother, awesome to hear you’re out there making a change for the positive in your life. I do have some bad news, though. Your concern is on the wrong step of the game. At first, you just want to learn to walk up to people. My rule for new students is that the first thing they have to do is get badly rejected in front of us 10 times. If you’re willing to do it and laugh with us, dinner and drinks are on me. I do this because rejection doesn’t matter at first. Step one is being comfortable walking up to anyone. After a while you’ll gain a sense based on their body language. Who to approach and who not to approach. But that’s late game stuff and don’t worry about that until you crush Approach Anxiety. When you get to that point we’ll have a talk about physical and social cues that represent women who want to get approached. Sounds like another great post idea.
When you ask that question, yet again, you’re limiting your options and you’re also being outcome dependent. I don’t want the easy girls; I want the skill and then I want my favorite type of girls no matter where they congregate.
For a beginner, the big question is which location gives you the most selection. So, night game usually ends up winning at first. Once you get over your own fears of rejection, though, night venues become almost always objectively worse since it’s harder to target your specific type of girl if you’re not into club chicks.
I love day game for two big reasons, although I find it harder.
- I can choose an appropriate venue for the type of girl I want, such as a book store, or a cooking class, so after the pickup we tend to gel better long term.
- Day game doesn’t require me to go out of my normal comfort-zone as it’s basically playing pick-up in the always-on mode. Always-on means more approaches over a longer amount of time which means more practice. It also allows me to be more discerning. I question those girls who have the free time to meet guys at a club on a Tuesday night… most of the girls I meet in clubs were 21-25 year old waitresses and students, which are great one night stands but awful dates. They tend to only have their looks going for them, and 1000 approaches on basic bitches will drive you insane.
How I started Since my first goal was to find and complete 1000 approaches, Atlanta night life made more sense, because the venues had so many more females. I found that club openers were easy if I was doing indirect game, because the routines I used made sense for the venue. I also found that going to the same bar or club gave me a huge amount of social value, since I used to play pick-up games with the staff at places and I used to rally the other regulars to my side. The first club I went to, I came early, told the hot bartender why I was there, gave her 100 dollars in 5s and told her, “I have one hour. Every time you see a hot girl tell me to go. If I approach give me one of my fives back. At the end of the hour you can keep all the money left over”. Making it a game made it super easy and that bar tender became my friend and keyed me in to events in ATL. I had no plan my approach strategy was literally to recite rap lyrics to girls but this made me super comfortable approaching.
Actual Answer For me night life is always easier because that is where I started.
- That being said, if you have the time and want easy results my experience has shown me to go to meetup.com events if there are any in your area. There are a ton of women at these events specifically there to meet guys and girls. This is more of a warm approach and they tend to be more open to being hit on and talked to because that’s why they are there. Specifically to make new friends.
- Also for quick wins, do speed dating events, that helped me realize we are all awkwardly in this together, and we all love getting hit on as much as the other sex so I should go wild whenever I have the chance.
- Lastly, becoming a regular at a location gave me social proof. So, places I tend to frequent constantly are the places where the girls are the easiest to open up as that social proof gives me the comfort to take big risks and just to feel okay being myself. For example, there is a live band karaoke bar I go to every Monday. Whenever I approach there, the staff and the band know me and thank me when they walk by etc. so the girls open up very easily.
Quick tip for day game Simple pick up used to have a service called project go, that focused mainly on day game approaches. I think it was 10 a month and it was a blow by blow of approach theory. They would practice day game, play it back unedited and then replay it going through each concept piece by piece. If you want to really have some guidance I would recommend checking out some of those videos.
nat_lite: Awesome post! Could you recommend some good magic books?
Perfectz: I recommend watching Scam School, by Brian Brushwood to get started. Then, moving on to disturb reality YouTube videos. I then would recommend the book The Royal Road to Card Magic or Card Magic by Oz Pearlman. If you’re in the Atlanta area, just tell me and I’ll take you out and we’ll do street magic in the local park.
ThaDonKilluminati: Favorite Seth Godin books?
Perfectz: Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us and Poke The Box.
I am a technical architect by trade, so Purple Cow was my actual favorite book but that was unpick-up related.
His talks actually had the biggest effect on me as I find his writing style to beat a dead horse every now and then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDtkBsWgzWE
glitch0: How was your experience with outsourcing online dating? Did you actually manage to get a lot of women matching your criteria interested that way? Did you burn a couple of cities down that way and couldn’t do it anymore?
Perfectz: I definitely think my next article will be on this. It seemed to generate the most interest. At any rate, I’ll hit you with some of the high points.
First time I got 8 dates the second time I got 6. All together it cost me about 120 dollars first run. 80 dollars the second run. I meet tons of girls but not too many with my exact criteria. Such a bold move attracts a certain type which wasn’t my type.
I used 6 different dating sites and came up with a strategy to find people with the highest response rate (usually new users only on for a month with recent last online time). Plenty of Fish ended up just being the best. I used it after this project as well. Adultfriendfinder was almost all hookers. They used codes such as “generous” etc thinly veiled code for pay me.
It was a better example of learning how to outsource and manage people as well as plan an event. Oddly enough the real value of this gambit is on the tons of dates I’ve gone on since then. I always have a conversation about online dating that seems to come off as very interesting to my date.
The trick here though is your picture and profile quality not your VA/PA (personal assistant/virtual assistant) and getting to a “yes” as quick as possible and discouraging back and forth to detract the equivalent of curious onlookers who don’t really want to meet. My criteria for an actual date, even if I got a response, was actually pretty high which affected my numbers.
My Personal assistants sent about 30 messages a day and never bumped into the same person twice. Oddly enough though they did end up mailing some of my previous approaches whose numbers I got but didn’t call in the past (yikes!!). I found that if you did 600 people every month on each dating site, you wouldn’t burn out the city of Atlanta. It’s crazy how quickly new members join those things.
glitch0: Fascinating! I’m not in the “cash in” phase of game right now, so I don’t have time to deal with online at this point, but I’m thinking I might give one of these high-end services a try at some point when dates is what I’m looking for. They charge something like 300-600/mo and guarantee x dates / week. I’d do it myself by hand, but I know how time consuming it can be, having done it for about 10 years myself until I stopped doing online altogether.
Perfectz: Speed dating is so easy, and so much faster. It has the added practice of helping you practice number, closing and all that. I really recommend that path but this idea does interest me. Give me the website link. I’d love to sponsor one of my old students through that and see how it works out for him and report back to the community. Also make sure to write if you take the plunge. We need to talk things out on here so we know what’s actual good advice and services, and how to avoid just marketing hype.
tehsandvich: How do you add value? That seems difficult to me. I’m not funny or witty or charming or outgoing.
Perfectz: I’ve found this statement is never true. There is always some value to be added, but I will play devil’s advocate here and assume you have no value transparent to you. Here are a few tips. This is something I will post a walk through on here later but hopefully one of the more pro guys in here will first :).
Sappy answer Appreciating another person, being interested in their opinions and offering them opportunities to express their values add a strong emotional value to most women. Having someone who is truly interested in them adds value. So simply caring about the people you talk to adds value.
Actionable answer Style used this opener called the style’s EV routine stack. The idea was to try to find the girl’s values as quickly as possible by asking her a set of questions. I took this a step further and when I meet girls in two sets I’d play a game. I would take out my business card and say tell me the three things that most positively describe your friend and write them down, and then I would ask the friends to guess what the other wrote was their favorite aspect of their friend. It would be a fun little game where each girl got to complement another and stealthily tell me what was important to them. I used this game to decide what girls really felt were favorable traits, and what favorable traits I should focus on for myself. That gave me a good idea of how to frame myself abstractly to show very high value.
One thing I force my students to do is give me two events they want to go to that are crazy every month. When talking to women they ask their opinion on the event. Sites like creative loafing and living social has all kinds of events. Yet, again meetup.com comes to mind. Being a source of exciting local events adds value. Also, many times they accidentally had their targets invite themselves to join them. Ahh the art of getting dates without even asking 🙂
Throw parties and host events. If you need party ideas, tell me, I’ll give you a bunch. Being the host of events or the guy to know adds a shit ton of social value.
Lastly being vulnerable and genuine adds a very, very large amount of value. It’s so rare that just being honest makes you a valuable friend. Super sad but it’s true.
Books and research Yet again read how to win friends and influence people. Watch Annihilation method by style on YouTube. It’s free and it’ll teach you the approach part of the game on showing value in small ways. Also maybe read introduction to NLP. It explains value and rapport building pretty intensely.
Most importantly research hobbies such as cooking, rock climbing etc. In my case, I made Karaoke part of my value add. So anything you’re passionate about that you can share with another adds value.
Tony Robbins used this concept called modeling where you try to copy the traits of the people you respect. I made an honest try to copy the characteristics of those I saw who were the most charismatic, up to even giving their hobbies a chance. That select gave me tons of stories and ways to add value.
Hell, I even picked up a bi-girl by sharing with her pick up techniques, and her deciding that I provided so much value she wanted to have a relationship for a while. But that went south quickly. I also posted this on Facebook so she’s probably reading this too :p
glitch0: Another question for you, appreciate taking the time to answer these. Did you pick up game all on your own or did you work closely with someone and received mentorship?
Also, any particular folks in the industry you personally like and think are both great at game and as coaches?
Perfectz: Trial by fire, I’ve had nothing besides torrents, a simple pick up membership, these very forms, YouTube and modeling myself after people I meet that instilled a strong sense of charisma in me.
Actionable item I wanted to build from outside the community as much as possible so I told my friends I was doing a podcast. I would invite them over and record hater’s and supporter’s comments on what I was doing. The insight I got god damn, sometimes I was so deep in it we get mind washed by the propaganda.
I always was forced to hear how pretentious and how much of a dick I would sound from time to time, which really got me to reel myself back. I am comfortable with everyone knowing this is how I think and work. I’ve always used my real name so each person’s comment forged me similar to a mentor. Objective Self awareness became the focus of my inner game.
Actual Answer The role models specific to pick up I’ve never met that I would love to talk to or meet are Neil Strauss, Tyler Durdan, The Simple Pick Up Crew (I respect this team the most), and early on David Deanglo.
The people who define my game who I studied but are not in pick up were, you guessed it. Tim Ferriss, Tony Robbins, Seth Godin, Dr. Albert Bandura (father of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I used his research to come up with my teaching method if approach anxiety is an anxiety why don’t we treat it like other phobias).
Oddly enough the dog whisperer. His energy is insanely good. If you can come at everyone with his energy you have the cheat code for confidence and a value adding aura. Shout out to the writers of freakanomics and Robert Green. I don’t agree with most of Robert Green’s ideas but I value the perspective.
I kind of had a few friends I saw as mentors who I modeled the behavior of. One of my friends is in an underground band called brother hawk. His music touches people. He has a small cult following. I noticed everyone loves him because he treats everyone like family. Always surrounded by great friends because he treats everyone like they have high value and, like his music, he is super genuine. I copied some of his characteristics and took him out to dinner many times and asked him his opinion of the things I was doing. His insight was invaluable.
Lastly, oddly enough, one of my students. He grew so much. He went from his first date at 38 to multiple relationships, i.e. spinning plates in 8 months. His objective analysis of what I was teaching him, and distilling it into kernels of wisdom helped me grow a lot. Also I’m an idealist he is not. So it was very great to have his pragmatic insight.
My old boss at work, who has also been like a father and a mentor to me. He encouraged me to go on this adventure even when it wasn’t in his own best interest. I always run ideas by him, he keeps me grounded.
Most importantly the people I hate. I get excited when I find a real asshole I can’t stand because it gives me a chance to recognize the negative traits in myself and remove them. Removing similar flaws that I see in negative influences in myself has definitely made me grow the most.
Sometimes we do things and we are too close to them to see their true impact. In those moments everyone we meet becomes our mentors.
What’s your advice to someone trying to transition from pick up mainly in drunk party situations, to pick up in a completely sober environment? I’m asking personally, since I’m abstaining from alcohol and any other mind altering substances.
Perfectz: I can interpret this question two ways. Do you want help on how to game without alcohol or are you looking for alcohol free venues.
Gaming without alcohol If you find yourself too uncomfortable while sober to approach girls. Focus on Indirect Game. Routines, and stacks. Why you ask? Alcohol gave you courage because it was something you could rely on to get you over the hump. Instead, depend on a plan or a strategy. I find that indirect tends to have the most straight forward strategies. Mystery once said I would rather be competent then confident. That competency feeds into confidence. I am not a big fan of indirect as much as when I started. If you absolutely can’t function without something to loosen yourself up, start with a super structured approach and then work up to natural or direct game.
Non-Alcholic venues Too many to list: rock climbing groups, opera Meet-ups, photography meet-ups, any type of volunteer work, any type of sport/physical related activity. Day game in general. Online dating sites (if you accept that they suck). If you’re in AAA why the hell not pick up girls there, too.
SamGill: OP like you – re your last point: this is the type of reaction i get from certain friends of mine: “you talk to random girls on the streets??…………um ok………that’s just creepy” etc. implying that i’m a creeper – there’re not bad people, i don’t blame them for thinking that way, but it’s precisely that type of thinking that can get you down in the early stages when one still has AA (approach anxiety). so best drop the subject when with them……..i don’t like dropping good friends for a foible, so i just don’t talk that sort of thing with them.
Perfectz: Yes, of course don’t push your friends away. Just let them slide away. The people who were causing the most trouble I just deleted from my phone and only store their number in a word doc. I stopped calling them or inviting them places unless they initiated with positive news.
I gave them a 3 month vacation from access to me. Then I would invite them to coffee to test them out if they were still a hater. I kept them on the once every 3 months list. Eventually I didn’t have time to manage all of them so the worst just got removed systematically from the list.
SANNDER: The book you recommend “models”. Can you give me the full name of the book please?
Perfectz: Models by Mark Manson. I listened to the audio book and everything he said was a compilation of “I wish this was the first thing I heard”. Very honest even when it hurts, and encouraging of a more positive type of player.